Life curriculum with Gholdy Muhammad: How do we build a steady mindset for uneven times?

Welcome to This is UIC, the official podcast of the University of Illinois, Chicago. I’m Grace Khachaturian and with each episode, we delve into the stories that drive us to unpack our most compelling questions. As Chicago’s only public research university, UIC is leading the way to create and inspire a better world. This is UIC.  

In this episode, we’re joined by Gholdy Muhammad, University of Illinois Chicago professor in the College of Education. Gholdy is an author, scholar and changemaker. She’s also a Chicago native whose work is helping reshape how we think about literacy, culture and identity and education and beyond. I know our time together today will be packed with wisdom. So glad to have you on the podcast today, Gholdy. 

Gholdy Muhammad  00:44 

Thank you. I’m so grateful to be here. 

Grace Khachaturian  00:48 

Absolutely. Today we are diving into the curiosity of how do we build a steady mindset for uneven times. Before we begin, I would love to dive into a little bit more of who you are. Tell us a little bit about your why. 

Gholdy Muhammad  01:08 

Well, my full name is Gholnescar, which means sharing flowers in a Persian culture. And I like to think that throughout my life, my purpose is to share flowers with others, whatever that flower or good thing may be. It may be teaching, learning, my writing, my poetry, my books. And the idea of me sharing and giving is really inspired by my why. I like to think that my why is everything that’s wrong in the world and everything that’s right. You know, those are the two motivating factors that wake me up in the morning and keep me going.  

And when I think of, you know, everything that’s wrong, the harms, the oppressions, the inequities, the injustices. And I like to think that my why is waking up and trying to move forward, to rectify, to help, to support, to disrupt that harm. And when I say that all that is right, and I see the goodness in humanity, people coming together to lift one another and bring each other joy and help, it’s like that gives me hope to keep going, and it also balances out, you know, what we name as uneven times. And from the beginning of my life, from I can remember, I knew I wanted to educate, share flowers or teach, and I’ve been in education now for 24 years. And I could still tell you and remember the feeling of the sweet joy that flowed through my body when I started teaching my big brother in our makeshift classroom at home. And every time I teach, it doesn’tmatter if I’m sad or upset or not feeling well. It’s like that embodiment of joy, like, rushes through my body, and it’s like I’m not feeling bad or I’mnot sad anymore. It just changes me. And so it reminds me, like, this is what I’m supposed to do, this is my place in the world, my reason. 

Grace Khachaturian  03:23 

Where do you think this care for humanity came from? 

Gholdy Muhammad  03:28 

You know, I was born and raised as Muslim, and I’ve always had a special connection to my faith, even as a young child. That really was the foundation for my love for humanity. I remember the exact moment where I knew I wanted to be a writer. I read this verse in the Quran that said, if all the trees on Earth were pens and if all the ocean’s water were ink, it would still not exhaust the words of God. And I said, whoa. I just, I just want to get one of those tree pens and a little bit of that ocean’s ink. What would I write? What do I have to say to help others, to disrupt things, to bring joy. And I remember that as a young girl.  

And every time, whether it was, you know, writing my dissertation or writing books or writing something completely new, like a children’s book, I would say to myself, the trees are my pens, the ocean is my ink, like, you got this, Gholdy. And so that, again, that foundation really just helped me to understand what is humanity and what is my role and responsibility.  

And I remember my father gave me this poem. And my father is Persian, and the poem was written by a Persian Iranian Muslim author, Saadi Shirazi. And in the poem, the writer describes humanity like one body. He says, we are just one body, all of humanity. So he says, in so many words, if you can imagine different cultures as limbs. And he says, if one limb is oppressed, it’s hurt, and you don’t feel it in your body. You go to sleep. You sleep well at night. He says, you don’t deserve to be called human. It doesn’t matter if that limb looks like you, practices like you, loves like you. It doesn’t matter, he says. And that poem taught me what it means to be human is to see all of us, you know. You don’t have to be a mother to know the pains that mothers go through. You don’t have to be a teacher to know the struggles they may go through. Because they’realready a part of your humanity.  

 a part of my purpose. Because you’re a part of me. 

Grace Khachaturian  06:12 

Let’s address the state of our world and the weight people might be feeling and how a way of thinking could help us navigate these uneven times. 

Gholdy Muhammad  06:23 

Yes. So you know, in my work, I work with teachers and future teachers, so those who are already in the field and those who want to be teachers. And I guess, for like, the last 15 years, 16 years, I’ve been asking students, I’ve been asking teachers in the field, if you can describe our current times in one word, what would the word be? And it’s not a trick question. I even asked with a smile. I don’t say now, what word, you know, would you describe? I don’t say it like that. I really just ask. And the words are overwhelmingly negative. They’re true, because they come from people who are speaking truth. But they’re always painful. I get words like turbulent, sad, uneven, divisive. I get that a lot. That’s also one of the top three. Every once in a while, I get a little bit of hope. One person would say hopeful, or they’ll be, like, in the middle. We have more technology,we have greater access to knowledge.  

But the words, their answers say something about the state of our world and the weight that we’re under. We wake up sometimes to the news that is very heavy on our hearts. We wake up to confusion, we wake up to war, we wake up to dehumanization. And I’m often asking myself, how do I navigate this, and how do I, you know? Because if the humanity is one body, it’s almost feeling like, in some ways, it’s happening to you or your people, if, if all the humanity are our people, right?  

And so first I always say to folks, we gotta address the weight. We gotta name the weight. Is this uncertainty, confusion, turbulence — is this new? Have the ancestors experienced this before? So we call it out, and then we spend some time with ourselves. We also galvanize and organize and get with like-minded people who are for the state of humanity, who are trying to make the times more even.  

You know, in Islam, it says there are multiple ways to respond to harm in the world. One is to, like, use your hand. Like, use your body, whether it’s protest or something like that. Another is to use your tongue to speak out against it, and another is to feel that it’s wrong in your heart, as a response. And so I’m always saying, like, what’s my response? What do I do next? Is it using my pen, my tongue speaking out again? Is it, you know, showing up for somebody and helping to you be there physically? Is it always to feel? You know, because all this stuff that’s happening, I think some people don’t want us to feel. I mean, it’s so much. It’s almost like, are we becoming desensitized? You know, where we see something like some kind of horrific event, and we just kind of, oh, well, that happened again. I never want to be in that state of feeling or mind. 

Grace Khachaturian  09:51 

Yeah. I love what you said of just bringing it up with the people around you makes it feel collective instead of, gosh, I’m carrying this alone.  

So in your book “Cultivating Genius,” you talk about a framework with four pursuits. And in the next book, “Unearthing Joy,” you introduce a fifth pursuit. Can you just tell us a little bit about these pursuits? 

Gholdy Muhammad  10:13 

Yeah, so in my scholarship and my research, I started to look at education and literacy development in the 1800s and onward. I studied as it relates to Black Americans. So I studied literary societies, which were some of our nation’s first book clubs and organized spaces for reading, writing, lectures, thinking, speeches, all sorts of beautiful literacies that came together to study science and math and art and history and language. And so I started studying these literary societies. I also studied Black newspapers, Black schools, literary writing, speeches. So I discovered that even in the midst of horrific violence and enslavement in the country, they were steadfast on their literacy development and their education and, and having a life that they deserve. They were steadfast with it.  

And my question was, what were some of their goals of learning, of teaching. And I found —of life, of living —what were their goals for living? And I found that they had, across the two books you mentioned, they had five major goals — teaching, learning and living. And they named their goals pursuits. They didn’t learn name them learning standards. They didn’t name them living goals. They named them pursuits. And I, I thought pursuits carried such grand meaning. I, you know, that pursuit just made me feel like let me get up and do something. It, it signified action, to me. It didn’t signify being stagnant or mediocre or basic. It signified excellence. So there’s something so much greater than a goal or a standard.  

So anyway, they had these five pursuits, and the first was identity development. As they were gathering, their goal was to learn more about themselves, as individuals, as a collective, but also learn about each other and different cultures from all over the world. They wanted to learn who are they. Who am I? Who am I not? Who am I destined to be? So identity gave them protection.  

The second pursuit was skill development. They wanted to learn the skills, the proficiencies needed across mathematics and science and language and history and art and all these things. These are what we call learning standards or proficiencies today. But they wanted to learn how to comprehend the text they’re reading. Learn how to do the actionable steps of mathematics and science.  

The third pursuit is intellect. They wanted to become smarter. They wanted to gain new knowledge. But the difference between knowledge and intellect, knowledge stays in your mind, while intellect, the way I define it, is more actionable. You do something with it. You use your knowledge to make the world better.  

And the fourth pursuit was criticality. Now I’ve named this many different names in my coding and my historical research. But I came to this word of critical, criticality, not just critical thinking, but big C. I call it capital C. Critical thinking is critical thinking about power, justice and equity. Criticality is where we both teach our students, but also live in a way that names, understands questions, harm in the world, oppression in the world, and ultimately works to disrupt it to make the world a better place. And so this is the justice pursuit, the equity-building pursuit.  

And then the fifth pursuit, which I introduce in “Unearthing Joy,” is joy. This is where we teach, we learn, we live out wonder, imagination, wellness, healing, peace. It is what we fight for every day in our lives, joy. It is a space to be free. And so criticality and joy have a relationship, because there is no joy without justice. And that goes back to the humanity is one body. Can there be joy in my body, if my arm is broken or hurt? There is no joy without justice. And so these are the five pursuits that I have introduced as a framework for teaching, learning and, as you said, living. 

Grace Khachaturian  15:00 

Yeah. Which of these pursuits would you say we see the least in our daily lives? And why do you think that is? 

Gholdy Muhammad  15:08 

Well, it depends on who you are. I am, I’m a Black Muslim woman who was raised by a single mother, whose father is an immigrant. Daughter of an immigrant, right? I see criticality every day. I’m also well-read in critical theory and criticality. So I see it every day. But somebody with different identities or different scholarship or knowledge.  

But when I ask this question to educators who are raising and leading our next generations, they always say, in schools, whether it be K-12 or higher ed, we see criticality and joy the least, and then identity. We use skills, we use knowledge of what we know, but they don’t see that. So, you know, it depends on the person. I mean, I think that’s a good question for all of us to ask. Which do we see more? Which do we see less of?But I will tell you personally, day to day, I am experiencing all five in some kind of way. I need some kind of skills for communication. I need to know stuff on a daily basis. I need to know who I am, to protect and advocate for myself, for identity. I need to call out injustice, and I need to wake up and seek joy, like, I need to make joy the start of my day. So I’m doing all of them every day. 

Grace Khachaturian  16:46 

I love that. How would you encourage someone who is listening to this and thinking I struggle to identify any of this framework within my life right now? 

Gholdy Muhammad  16:57 

Yeah. I would first say, I struggle, too. I feel that, too. You’re not alone. And then I would say, you know, this is not an arrival, like we’ve made it. But it’s a constant striving toward it. And I would then say, which pursuit are you comfortable with, uncomfortable with? So part of this work is sitting with ourselves before we engage others, and just asking questions like, for identity, who am I? How do other people see me? How do I see myself? What skills do I do really well? What knowledge do I want to seek? And then for criticality, ask yourself, what injustices have you seen,experienced directly? Which ones haven’t you?  

You know, I have never experienced homophobia, but I know it’s real. I know it’s harmful to people who experience it. And then I ask myself, has, how has my consciousness shifted? Certainly the way I speak about the world and oppression is different from 20 years ago, and that’s OK. It should be different. It shouldn’t be the same. And then for joy, I say, what gives me joy? I really just ask myself. So I want people to know you just need to reflect and goal set and start to move some of those things in action. It’s not about, you know, negative self-talk, “oh, I’m not there” orshaming yourself or others. It’s just really about trying to name it, understand it for yourself, or what people you trust, and then move in the in that direction. 

Grace Khachaturian  18:36 

What a great starting point. How can these pursuits impact education? 

Gholdy Muhammad  18:44 

Yeah, so the model was written initially, the framework, these five pursuits, they were written for education. You know, like I said, I come from education. I am an educator. I love how people — just a side note — I love how other people have told me things like, well, I use this framework for dating and looking for the right partner. And I said, oh, OK. And I’ve had doctors call me and say, you know, I’m thinking about these pursuits in the medical field, or people in business or, like, college basketball coaches. So I’m seeing mothering and parenting. I’m seeing these five pursuits show up in more ways than I initially imagined, which is really cool and inspiring.  

But in education, I am helping, you know, pre-K-12 teachers set unit-plan, lesson-plan goals around these five. So, you know, an example is a math teacher was teaching about slope and proportional relationships in sixth grade. And I said, where would you see a slope and proportional relationship in real life? And he says, ah, maybe roller coasters? And I said, OK, teach about the evolution and the history of roller coasters. That’s intellect. So now you have skills and intellect.  

And then for identity, as students, what are their preference to amusement parks and roller coasters? Are they a roller-coaster person? I’m, I’mnot. I’m the person that watches your bags. For criticality, as they were studying the history, they looked at how amusement parks were segregated back in the day. And how some, some roller coasters had, like, these elevator shafts, which were invented by a Black man. Later, after the segregation of joy of amusement parks, like roller coasters. And then they really explored why people go, as, like a mathematician. Like statistically, why do people go to attend amusement parks in so many numbers? So it became this, you know, five-, six-week unit to teach all those five pursuits embedded. So they leave knowing more about who they are, knowing more about other people, knowing more skills, knowing more knowledge, knowing more justice topics and experiencing joy. So we just connect those goals directly to our pedagogy, our syllabi, ourcurriculum. 

Grace Khachaturian  21:25 

So cool that this framework truly can be adopted into whatever stage of life. So do you think it’s possible, with these pursuits in mind, with this framework in mind, to create a joyful life in the midst of uneven times? 

Gholdy Muhammad  21:41 

Yeah, of course. And this is where history teaches us, the ancestors teach us. It has to be — we have no other choice — it has to be possible. It may not be easy. Some days it may be difficult, may be hard. It may feel impossible, but I like to think absolutely it is possible. Because if we think about the ancestors, and when we look at history, history has proven that we can create a joyful life in the midst of a heavy world. I think about, like, the Holocaust, chattel slavery. I think about apartheid as three examples. There’s certainly more with colonization around the world. But three examples that were most horrific times for the people, for the children, for the adults. And, like, I noticed, like in my research, with looking at enslavement, the ancestors created spaces for joy, through hush harbors, through literary societies, through song, through church, through prayer. And if we look at joy as more than just having fun or celebrating, if joy is peace, wellness, wonder, healing as well as the happiness aspects of joy — joy was created. They came together. And when I look at, you know, the smile on Nelson Mandela’s face after being in prison for, I think, about 27 years, and Nelson Mandela could have been angry with the country, the state, the world, the people who kept him there in prison. I mean, that was his whole life. That’d be 20-something years. I look at the smile on his face, I knew through some, some kind of way, he was finding joy in a heavy world. When I see Dr. King on vacation at, in Jamaica, on the beach, in the pool, I knew he was finding joy. When I see Rosa Parks doing yoga, I know she was finding joy. When I see June Jordan or Toni Cade Bambara, when I read their — Nikki Giovanni — when I read their poetry, I knew, I know that they were finding joy in a heavy world through their pens. So it has happened. If they did it, we can do it. 

Grace Khachaturian  24:04 

Yes, the infusion of hope. And we can look back at history to see where and how. So how can this framework help shape our mindset to carry us through these uneven times? 

Gholdy Muhammad  24:21 

Well, I want us to be, as my best friend says — her name is Dr. Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz, out of Columbia University Teachers College — she’s always talking about this idea of being disruptors. And it’s not always, like, disrupting racism. It is that, but it can be, like, disrupting the normal day-to-day what we normally do. You know, it can be disrupting the meeting, like, the agenda. Like, instead of starting this meeting with, like, the PowerPoint slides and the agenda, let’s start it with music.  

I used to have a department chair at another university, she would find your talent. It didn’t even have to be a talent, just something you may have done once, and she would have you perform in front of the rest of the faculty. She had people bringing in their saxophone from high school, all sorts of things. And we were reluctant sometimes, but when we got into it, it was such joy. But what she was doing was disrupting meetings,how meetings typically go. So how we can use this mindset to carry through these — be a disruptor. If you don’t normally take a nap, take a nap. Don’t, and don’t need permission. Don’t wait for, rely on or wait for permission for somebody to tell you it’s OK. I am always encouraging for all of us to get some kind of form of therapy, because it is not natural to take all this in and be fine and be OK and to be well. So disrupting and then getting, like, get with your people, you know? Like, another friend told me, what’s going to save us? Community. Like, get with your people and get with them in a way that is noncompetitive, non-, you know, it’s about collectivism, not individualism. It’s not about you; it’s about us. Get with those folks to build together. And sometimes those people are hard to get because we live in a world that honors competition and individualism, that’s always trying to move to the top, that is about climbing without lifting others. That’s what society has taught us. So disrupt that and get with people that just celebrate you and want for you and help you, and then you do the same for them. There’s no competition. There’s no comparison. I’m at the point where it’s, like, the only person I’m in competition with is myself. The only person I compare myself with is myself. Now, if I see something of you and I’m like, oh, that’s a beautiful goal I want to aspire to, that’s different. But, you know, try to get the right community is what I would say. 

Grace Khachaturian  27:16 

So disrupt, go to therapy and find your community. I think that’s good advice. And I think being a disruptor can be the catalyst of impact. What do you hope your impact is? 

Gholdy Muhammad  27:31 

I think about that. And I remember when I started writing my books with the framework, I think the book sold like 100 copies, which to me it meant, like, maybe 100 people read it, or 50. Because, you know, sometimes books just sit, so let’s say half. And I said, wow, that’s amazing. My goal has been met, when I write in terms of impact, I just want to make, do right by God. I want to make my ancestors proud. I want to make my parents proud. And I want that sweet, I want to feel that sweet joy, even if I just feel it during the midst of writing that one book, it would have been, I remember it for a lifetime. That’s enough for me, and the fact that more impact happens, has happened after that, that’s, that’s just like icing or cherries on the top.  

I just, I want people to remember kindness and love with me. I want them to remember that I asked, how’s their heart? You know, I ask people that a lot. I want them to feel like I have helped shape curriculum, instruction, pedagogy, to teach. I want them to know that you don’t have to pick skill development or standards over joy. You can have it all. So I want to be the model, a model of genius, justice and joy, which are concepts and pillars I write about in my work. I want them to say whatever she wrote about, she embodied it in her life. And whether it is 50, 100 or millions, it’ll be OK with me as long as I do right by my people, who I honor and remember in my work. 

Grace Khachaturian  29:18 

Well, it’s clear the ocean is your ink, whether it be through curriculum, your research, the framework you’ve shared, and even your care for humanity. I’m confident your impact is felt, and your name really does suit you. I’m grateful we’ve gotten just a glimpse of your story today. I think we will all leave this conversation more equipped to navigate uneven times. If you were to pick a song that best represents your story, what song would you pick? 

Gholdy Muhammad  29:47 

So, OK, I kind of picked two songs because, again, disrupting the norm. I’m just saying that. So, like, immediately I thought of Stevie Wonder. Like, Stevie Wonder’s music is like the soundtrack of my life. And I love him. I love everything he represents. I see those five pursuits in his life, as a writer, as an artist, as a creator, you know, of art. And the first song I thought of — and they, these songs kind of go together — and I’ll explain. But I thought of “Summer Soft” as my favorite song by him. 

[Summer Soft excerpt] 

Gholdy Muhammad  30:36 

Now this song takes us through the seasons, and he uses the seasons as an analogy to talk about how we go through different things, growth, despair, in life. And so he has this line that says, “Morning rain gently plays her rhythms on your window panes, giving you no clue of when she plans to change, to bring rain or sunshine.” And I love that, because that speaks to the uncertainty of life, and you just have to trust and believe that some days you might get rain and some days you might get sunshine. And then the second song, which is entitled “Black Orchid” … 

[Black Orchid excerpt]  

Gholdy Muhammad  31:46 

… uses the flower the black orchid as an analogy or comparison to Black women. And I use this song to open my book of “Unearthing Joy.” And I’ll just read a couple lines. It says, “A flake of snow within a storm, a new way waiting to be born in a world with a need for change. A touch of love and fear of hate, a rushing wind that’s asked to wait for the promises of rain.” And so it goes back to your question about possibility, and so that line for the promises of rain, it’s almost like there’s going to be some hard times that, that makes you better; even pain brings growth. And even the promises of rain as a good thing, rains grow bad or good. It’s, you’re still growing. And that, that’s my song, because I have to tell myself, even though you’re experiencing hardships, uneven times or pain, it’s still, growth is still coming from it. And so I always look forward to the promises of writing for many different reasons in my life, and then I try to share that with all my students as well. 

Grace Khachaturian  33:09 

That is so good. 

Gholdy Muhammad  33:11 

I teach a class on Stevie Wonder’s music. We’re hoping to bring it back next year. We’re hoping to bring it to UIC, but I teach a college course. I’vetaught it in the past, of his musicality, of his life. I mean, yeah. So thank you, Stevie Wonder, and I love you.  

Grace Khachaturian  33:27 

Yes. Thank you, Stevie Wonder. Well, Gholdy, it has been such a joy to speak with you today and to hear a bit about your story, who you are and the work that you’re doing. It’s truly inspiring. So thank you so much for your time today.  

Gholdy Muhammad  33:43 

Thank you.  

Grace Khachaturian  33:44 

Learn more about Gholdy and her work in the show notes at today.uic.edu.